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  Breeding Pied peafowl
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spectrumranch
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 1:31 pm Reply with quote

A person asked this question:
Quote:
What would a white male and blue hen produce?


Here is my answer:
Quote:

If the Blue India is pure, meaning no white genetics in it's pedigree, then all the babies will be Blue India. They will look Blue India because that is the dominant gene, but they will carry the white gene, which is commonly called "split".

If you want to produce Pied:
It normally takes 3 generations (minimum 6 years) to produce a good pied peacock when you start with crossing white and colored birds. THe first generation (F1) are Blue Indias split to white. When they reach breeding age at 2 yrs- breed the splits back to whites; this will produce birds (F2) that mainly look like Blue Indias with a few white patches- normally a white throat patch, white in wings and on shoulders. When the F2 birds reach maturity, 2 years later- Breed them back to white birds- this will now give you good Pied Peafowl. But of Course- not you have to wait 3 years before the male offspring have long tails- so you are now at least 9 years from when you started.

For those who like the Pied Peafowl it is easier to buy them rather than take the time to try and produce them from solid birds.


Is my answer correct?????????

Randy www.spectrumranch.net
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Kevin
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 5:42 pm Reply with quote

The first sentence is almost correct but Blue is not "dominant" not a "gene" It is simply the wild geno and phenotype. Meaning what the "normal" wild version looks like and involves the entire genetic make up. Those birds would simply be Blue split for White.

Genes are determined to be dominant or recessive by breeding a mutant to the wild type. For example in Indian peafowl, to do that one has to breed White to a Blue. Since all the babies will look blue(as you noted correctly) except many will show some white in their flights and possibly on the chin also. Since the split birds still look mostly wild type yet show a few white, this kind of falls into grey area between dominant or recessive.. it was collectively voted or someone chose to call it "dominant" so it got that label(some people use the term co-dominant). Yet at the same time, birds with the white gene are called Splits. The concept of "Split" denotes a recessive gene. For an recessive example= Blue x Black shoulder= Blue looking birds, which gives the BS gene a Recessive label.

The second paragraph is not correct. Pied is a mutant gene of its own. Just like White, Black Shoulder, Opal etc are mutant genes by their own.

Repeated White crosses never produces pieds. Uless you cross them to a bird that has the Pied gene then voila, you get the Pieds with patches of white all over them.

One thing about the Pied gene, is that it does not do much to the appearence of the bird by it's own. Even a bird pure(homozygous) for Pied usually has just some white on the wings and chin(often looking much like a split White in fact). However, in the presence of a White gene, the Pied gene "suddenly" shows a lot more effect on the bird's appearence.

Another thing about Pied and White genes is that they are alleles* to each other. Meaning they are mutant genes that share the exact same "address" on the same chromosome. So you cannot have a bird pure for both Pied and White, and that is why the loud Pieds never breed true, because genetically they have one Pied and one White gene.

*at least that is the usual information. Sometimes I wonder about that but for now it is the standard answer.
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troy
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 10:38 pm Reply with quote

Kevin, Very well said you just for got the Amen at the end and I am not being smart by that eather.
I try to tell folks that and I spend all day doing it.
Wonderfully said thank you, thank you, thank you.Amen Very Happy

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kat
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:53 am Reply with quote

Bravo Kevin! once again!

Thank you.

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Kevin
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 3:56 am Reply with quote

LOL thanks! Smile

Just like to help whenever I can.. Back when I got my first whites, was told this very same thing by a couple people. It did seem to make perfect sense to me.. made a LOT of split whites for a while.. LOL I'm basically thanking whoever introduced me to the fact pied is a gene by helping others whenever this comes up(and it does very frequently).
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Sonoita
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 6:23 pm Reply with quote

OK, I think I follow all that.... Shocked
As a new comer Rolling Eyes , how would I then see the difference between a split and a pied?

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Kevin
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 3:01 am Reply with quote

Don't worry about finding it hard to follow, it is simple yet at the same time rather complex. It does not help the beginners the fact the Pied pattern is not very consistent, it can vary quite a bit from bird to bird.. even by line to line it seems plus white and pied are alleles which is something slightly beyond the very basic genetics.

Not sure which split you meant exactly as there are two split possibilities here(split pied and split white). I'm guessing it might be split white.. split pieds seem to be mostly lacking any white feathers, or only very, very few.

The difference between a pied and a split white USUALLY is that split whites(usually!) only have white on the primaries(the fingerlike feathers on the "hand" part of wing) and/or on the chin, and nowhere else. It can be just a few feathers or even all of the primaries.. it seems to be uncommon for split whites to have white on their secondaries(feathers on the "arm" part), but I would not be surprised if there is the occasional split white bird that does have white on their secondaries.

Pieds can and very often do, have white on the primaries and chin.. but they usually also have a white spot somewhere else on the body, often on an elbow & shoulder(on the wing part that rests on the back), patches on the belly/far lower neck. If there's a spot on the back or the tail area, it's almost a guarantee it's a pied not split white. But it is common for pieds to lack any white on their backs and tails, so lack of this cannot be considered good proof of it not being pied.. It is common for pieds to have white on the secondaries(as compared to split whites which usually don't).

Sometimes a bird can be determined to be ?? by knowing who their parents were but if this is not possible, often one can make a reasonable guess by looking at the bird but ultimately sometimes the real proof only can come by test breeding the bird. The simplest and most straightforwardest is to breed the bird in question to a White.

If the bird in question bred to a white throws only more like it & solid whites, it is split white.

If it bred with a white, throws ALL pieds, then it is a pure pied(often called Dark Pied).

If it bred with a white, throws both pieds and whites, it's uhm.. err.. a "true pied".. a pied with not much white..

I need to explain that last answer.. AFAIK, there is no accepted/established term for a Pied that is genetically the same as those loud pieds with big patches of white all over them, yet for whatever reason, have small amounts of white instead. Some people call them Dark Pieds, however that's a term already in use for the birds pure for Pied(as in second answer above). Maybe Quiet Pieds, heh..
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Sonoita
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 11:51 am Reply with quote

OK, so I bought a male IB ~ 3 months old from a local breeder who stated he came from a male 'white flight', would that be a pied? He looks lighter than my other male IB who is ~4 months old, I realize the age may be the difference, or just variations in the species.

Next I bout 2 purples and 1 purple pied chicks ~ 4 months old, all 3 look slightly different. My question is when I look at them 1 is clearly a pied, one has lighter tendencies, and all 3 are overall much lighter than the IB's. I suspect the purples must be lighter chicks than the IB's.
I will take pictures of all 5 chicks, if you wouldn't mind continuing the lesson.

I have enough organic chemistry & biology to be dangerous to myself! Laughing

PS My user name has changed from 'Bridgett' to 'Sonoita'
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Kevin
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:06 pm Reply with quote

If the male looked Blue and the only white was on the wingtips, he probably was simply a split white.. but, sometimes the only way to be sure is to test mate.

Lighter color could be variation or to something else such as white-eyed which does make the chicks a lighter color.. hard to tell without seeing the bird.

Yes purples are much lighter than blues on their bodies. This is a characteristic of this color and continues into adulthood.
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bcraft



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 6:35 pm Reply with quote

Yes purple chicks are lighter than IB. My guess without pics the lighter of the two is a hen, less barring on the back??

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Kevin
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 7:10 pm Reply with quote

I have two yearling purple hens. They both always had a distinctly different tint on the body, from chickhood to now. Purple is a new color to me.. is it normal for there to be variation between the tan tint between purples? How about the purple tint(on necks and tails) on the cocks- does it vary between males?
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Sonoita
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 9:09 pm Reply with quote

This 1st pic is of my 5 chicks; From Left to right Purple ( male?) purple (preening bad shot), IB white flight? wild pattern? male, Purple pied ( my guess female), Far right IB male
I will submit a few more individual pics of the chicks.
Feed back?!?

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Sonoita
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 9:11 pm Reply with quote

Purple, male? Not white on edges of flight feathers.

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Last edited by Sonoita on Tue Sep 09, 2008 9:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Sonoita
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 9:16 pm Reply with quote

purple male?

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Sonoita
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 9:18 pm Reply with quote

IB male bread from 'white flight cock'

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